MIchael Holland’s book A Jungle In Your Living Room is illustrated by Phillip Giordano.

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Transcript

[0:00] Music.

[0:16] Jane Perrone Hello I'm Jane Perrone and this is episode 285 of my venerable podcast On The Ledge. Venerable because it's been here since 2017. In this week's show I talk to Michael Holland about his book A Jungle In Your Living Room, finding out how to get kids engaged with the subject of indoor gardening. Plus I answer a a question about mealybugs.

[0:46] I don't know about you, but January felt like it was about a million years long.

[0:55] So I'm glad to be entering February and hoping that the extra light that's coming our way in the Northern Hemisphere will start to do good things for my houseplants, which are definitely not enjoying the lack of light. I've got a piece coming out in the Financial Times Times UK newspaper this Saturday, all about helping your plants cope with this time of year. So do check that out. I don't know if it will be freely available or not, or whether it'll be behind a paywall, but if I can link to that on my socials, I will. You can also dig back into the On The Ledge archive, where I talk about this in episode 118 of the show, and also 113 and 68. Yes this is a topic I've covered a few times I'll put links to those episodes in the show notes for you to check out as well so if you're struggling with your plants at this time of year then do go and listen back to the archive onwards and upwards though and this week it's all about inspiring the next generation of growers that's why I'm chatting to Michael Holland about his new book a jungle in your living room but let me tell you if you don't have any children and don't have any interaction with children I would still buy this book because it's absolutely lovely and you'll get loads out of it it's beautifully designed and I think it's a delight so without any further ado let's get chatting.

[2:18] Music.

[2:24] Michael Holland

Hello, I'm Michael Holland. I'm a freelance nature educator and an author, and I've had a long career of working in botanical gardens, including Chelsea Physic Garden and briefly at Kew Gardens, and I love plants. Well, that's a really good starting point, Michael, because everyone listening loves plants, too, as do I. So I loved getting a copy of your book, A Jungle in Your Living Room. I've long thought that there needed to be a book for children about houseplants. And you've really, to use an Americanism, hit a home run here because I think this book is so stunning. And what I love about it is that it really doesn't dumb down. Like I could read this book at the level of house planting that I'm at and still be engaged and fascinated. But it's just so accessible. So I love this book. I'm really glad we're here to talk about it. I guess I want to know your secret sauce, though. How did you go about coming up with a book that really spoke to children and engage with them without it kind of getting cheesy and patronizing, which is something we don't like in children's books?

[3:39] That's a good question. I wrote it with close, all the way through very close kind of contact with my editor. And she was terrific, basically. Not only kind of spoon feeding me deadlines, which were the right kind of deadlines for me, rather than all in one go in small stages or chapters or sections. Um but i think i mean in my head although I knew I was writing a children's book i know at the back of my mind that adults are going to read it whether that's the parents or the grandparents or the aunties uncles and just or just adults who just like the look of the book as they should do because it is beautiful um but answering your question that's the question I mean I've written it just the way I would like like people to,hear the kind of the the ins and outs of of how to look after houseplants how not to kill them how to revive them from near dead and other things.

Jane Perrone i guess one thing i could say is that maybe this is where your years as a nature educator come in in that you have an understanding of what children are going to want to ask and how to approach this. I'm guessing that would be the case. Is that accurate?

Michael Holland I mean, I guess that's it. I didn't want to blow my own trumpet.

Jane Perrone Please do.

Michael Holland Like you say, I have nearly 30 years of teaching people from the age of two to 92 all about the natural world. And I guess whether you're talking about photosynthesis or propagation or sort of plant pathogens or ecology and the interrelations between things in the world.

[5:28] Sometimes it's saying the same story to different audiences and, of course, you've got to say it differently. So maybe that's my gift. I mean, perhaps. That sounds a bit grand. But, you know, I think I've got the hang of kind of, yeah, saying things in the right way.

Jane Perrone

What I love about this book, as I've already said, is that it really doesn't shy away from a little bit of scientific latin some botanical terms and I think oftentimes that might be a dilemma for people working on or working with children in this topic area but you chose to include those things why was that well with my first book with this publisher Flying Eye Books um which is called i ate sunshine for breakfast um which came out in 2020 while writing that I was making sure that there was botanical latin throughout it when it came to the editing stage they were a little unsure they did say for a children's book this is a bit much and a little bit technical and I guess it's because I having worked in a botanical garden for 25 years I basically had that drummed into me that actually yeah you can say daisy or daffodil, but actually there is only one, Bellis perennis or Narcissus, but there is only one of those. And I guess also from the sort of accessible point of view and potentially for books, if any of these books are translated into other languages, as my first one has into like 25 or maybe more languages so far.

[6:53] Scientific names are not, not um you know, they're universal and that's the whole point of them but a common name could just be there could be more than one plant with the same common name but there's only one plant with the same scientific name so that's the reason and and i think the uh the editors and the publishers basically eventually they just thought yeah actually that does make sense so that was a another long answer to a short question but and also a glossary of terms and kind of making just I think it's just important that that's quite a good discipline, the whole scientific name thing. There's a lot of technical jargon in there as well but that's where the glossary comes into play at the back of the book.

Jane Perrone And in my experience i find that it tends to be adults rather than children who are scared of scientific names children are kind of a blank slate onto which you can if you tell children from the start that well this is the name and it's okay for you to say it however you can say it you know as long as you're getting the the overall you know know as long as you know what you're saying um whereas adults tend to be the ones who've perhaps been told in the past oh you know you can't um say this you're not good at this kind of stuff and therefore they end up being very afraid of scientific names i think generally if you start children off with the idea of yeah this is your territory you can do this this is absolutely fine and then there's no fear there for them um that's my experience anyway I maybe I'm very biased because I was that weird child who was just loved all the scientific names and it kind of I kind of felt at the time that it was almost like a sort of a magic spell or a superpower that I knew something that adults didn't know that I could kind of throw that out there I don't know if that was just me but

Michael Holland A secret language …

Jane Perrone And that's a powerful thing

Michael Holland But then from children's point of view, what about Tyrannosaurus rex, Diplodocus, Stegosaurus? They're all long names. They're all scientific names. But when it comes to plants, it seems to be different.

Jane Perrone Why do you think that is?

Michael Holland For some reason. I suppose it's easier to say Daisy than it is Bellis. Because I guess we don't need to in our daily lives. And Tyrannosaurus rex doesn't have a common, doesn't have a nickname.

Jane Perrone

I wonder whether there's something more to it than that. I think whenever you talk about conservation or about, you know, the science of biology, plants somehow seem to be on the bottom rung and animals are treated differently. I don't know if you find that true.

Michael Holland I think that's generally the gist of things. Yeah, absolutely. When it comes to conservation bodies. And yeah, I think that's the general climate at the moment and for decades.

Jane Perrone

Well, hopefully your book will do something to start changing that because it is so accessible, as was your previous book. Just briefly tell us what your previous book was about, just for anyone who hasn't seen it, because I think this is also worth knowing about.

Michael Holland

Yeah, I Ate Sunshine for Breakfast is a compendium of plants around the world, but it starts off by basically just going back to school with what is a plant? How does it work?

[10:10] How do they work? Rather, where do they all come from? The kind of plant family so basic taxonomy a little bit about the flowering life cycle of a of a flowering plant um how's you know what is a flower for to make seeds what is a seed how does it germinate kind of really back to basics and then i delve right into the wonderful world of plants in our lives, hence the title you know we are part of a food chain a food web we eat sunshine for breakfast without the sun we would be there'd be no photosynthesis and with or without plants we wouldn't exist because we use so much stuff whether it's our furniture our oxygen our clothes our toothpaste the musical instruments we like to listen to music on etc etc and so I got into the wonderful world of ethnobotany or cultural botany and symbolism and religious uses of plants and so forth so that's and then throughout both this one and um that book are quite a lot of DIY activities for people to try whether that's a plant maze for a bean plant made out of a shoebox or how to light a led light with a potato or or just start a bottle garden or something quite simple or grow some pips from the kitchen which which is a bit of a overlap with Jungle In Your Living Room as well

Jane Perrone

I do think that growing growing pips thing is um it's amazing i mean i had a grapefruit tree that i grew at Brownies that was in our kitchen for many years - i mean i don't know what happened to it uh well i presume when my parents moved overseas it had to be uh composted but it did it was a it was a beautiful thing that i'd grown from seeing at at Brownies and I remember that being quite a formative part of my plant education. So there are some fantastic projects in both books.

[12:10] If people are listening, have maybe children or grandchildren who just are not at all interested in plants, don't show any interest other than buying them your books. I mean, where can people start with this? If they're worried that their children are disconnected with nature, how can we reconnect and relink them to what's going on in the natural world.

Michael Holland I would say, as with your experience, you know, start at home, start with what we have already, whether it is a grapefruit or a satsuma, a lemon or a clementine pip, citrus seeds grow really, really easily nd without much help. And you might not end up with any fruit, but you'll have a lovely house plant for potentially decades. And um yeah start with what you have in the in the house it might be it might be taking a cutting from a an existing plant um so the wonderful idea of propagating stem cuttings from your, pothos or your pelargoniums or whatever you might have in the house or even sprigs of mint that you might have in the garden that you can just put in a jar and then see that magic magic of the magic the science of the or the wonder of the roots growing from what were leaf nodes um but then yeah avocados and dates there's so much stuff and actually as a as a child my parents bought for me for my eighth birthday a book which um many of your listeners may know and if they don't they must look up called The Pip Book by Keith Mossman and it was published in the late 1970s and it it really got me really interested in exactly that you know just i mean my my windowsills around the house and the airing cupboard at home where the boiler lived with none of those were ever the same again and to be honest not everything was a success there were lots of moldy things and non-starters and things like that but for some reason some i had enough successes um than more more successes than failures and i carried on little did i know that i'd be writing my own similar kind of book for the similar kind of audience which is a real joy really and it could be things like tomatoes and peppers and all kind of things that we'd otherwise throw away i love a bit of upcycling.

Jane Perrone

Yeah absolutely and i mean there's no harm in trying is there? I just don't know how things are going to work uh my son's had fun with lemon pips and also uh avocado which is one one of the ones I absolutely love trying because it's, it's so kind of a, what's the word? Well, it's just so it's a good size seed, right? For small hands. And it's a quite a dramatic development of that, of that sprout that, you know, it's a bit like, you know, beans is the same kind of thing. You get that really kind of, you can really see what's happening. It's not like a tiny seed where you can't see what's going on. Absolutely great fun.

[15:11] And I suppose also there's also things like, you know, do people still do what I used to do as a child? You know, the carrot top on the saucer of water, watching that grow. I used to love that as a kid. And also the other one I used to like as a kid was the old cress, mustard and cress on a tissue. I mean, again, fantastic. And then you can eat it. It's it's a wonderful, wonderful thing. And I'll put a link to that book, The Pip Book, in the show notes for anyone who's interested in that. There's a few books like that from the 70s and 80s that are just absolute gold. And that's one I really absolutely love. Moving back to your book, though, let's talk about the illustrations, because I love the illustrations in this book. And I have to say, I'm quite fussy with illustrations. Having worked on my own book and with an illustrator, I kind of know what I like. I love the illustrations in this book. They're so original. They're so engaging. Tell me about how that process worked and give us a sort of painted picture as to what the illustrations offer, please.

[16:17] Michael Holland

So the both I Eat Sunshine for Breakfast and Jungle in Your Living Room are both illustrated by the same person who is called Philip Giordano. And he lives in Tokyo and he is i believe he's Italian Filipino and weirdly i've i didn't have much connection with him or contact with him it was all done via the conduit that were my editors for both books and i mean painting a picture is impossible to paint a picture of his images i'm looking at it now um i mean just every single page of that book of these books are just like every image could just be cut out uh if you dared and put in a picture frame because they're just beautiful it's i'm not very good at describing the style but but it's a sort of not quite cartoony. But the thing about it is he, these were his, well, I Ate Sunshine for Breakfast was his first nonfiction book and he does lots of other things all over the world. It's a scientific book, but he's got to try and, these are, you know, you can't get it wrong when you're painting a, drawing a Monstera leaf, it's got to look like the right plant. And so he's kind of kept his own artistic style yet kept it pretty much scientifically accurate with with a few they're like a ginkgo leaf in the first book wasn't bilobed but i actually look at it and think actually that's still a ginkgo leaf so you know it just about works and they're just beautiful and they're fun there's always a little characters hamsters and cats and tortoises dotted through these book these pages which which are delightful they are delightful i love those those animal characters that are included I mean, it's about a million miles away from botanical illustration is what I'd say.

[18:21] Jane Perrone

It's a very kind of graphic, very colourful illustration that we're talking about here. Very, in a way, simple. And I say that as a compliment. But as you say, at the same time, I'm looking at the Monstera leaves on the cover. They have splits and holes in the way they should have. They've got aerial roots in the way they should have. Everything is kind of there. So that's one of the things that I really enjoyed about these pictures. And I do love the character. I guess it is a hamster. I was gonna ask you, is that a hamster, the little round guy who's absolutely adorable. I mean, I don't know if Philip has any plans to release these as prints or to do them in other formats, but I just think they're absolutely gorgeous. And I say that as somebody who's just seen so many illustrations of plants, but really, really fun.

[19:10] Music.

[19:20] Jane Perrone

More from Michael Holland shortly, but now it's time for a little bit of housekeeping, which is quite frankly rather worrying as I look at the state of my office desk right now. There's not been a lot of housekeeping going on in here recently. Anyone else a messy desk person?

[19:40] One day I'll get it tidy. Anyway, thank you to Codified Madness and Rosie's Plants for leaving lovely, lovely, lovely, lovely five star reviews for the show. Much appreciated. And to Leslie, who left the donation on Ko-Fi, whatever you like to call it. You can make a one off donation to support the show as Leslie did. Thank you so much, Leslie, and glad you enjoyed the Begonia top 10.

[20:07] I'm still taking submissions, by the way, about what other top 10s you'd like to see. Ficus and Tradescantia among the suggestions so far. And if you prefer to listen rather than read, do remember that Legends of the Leaf, my book on the fascinating backstories of 25 iconic houseplants, and also my first book, The Allotment Keeper's Handbook, are both available as audiobooks on Spotify and Audible. So if you have a subscription to either of those, you might not have to pay anything extra to get hold of them. You can become a super fan on my Patreon offering and get free access to both of those books, or you can buy them as one-offs on various audiobook platforms. So if you want a relaxing listen and you want to learn more about either Growing Veg or the fascinating histories of houseplants, do go and check those out. I've been surprised by how many people are choosing to download and listen to the Allotment Keeper's Handbook. It's had a little, it's been a bit of a sleeper hit. So do go and check that out.

[21:14] Feedback on the last episode 284 the Q&A on sustainable packaging the question that came in about finding potting mixes bagged not in plastic but in cardboard or paper and Jeff got in touch with a really good point. Jeff worked for several years in a garden centre selling a lot of bagged potting soil and Jeff writes I think another big reason why many companies still use plastic bags and stores mostly sell them is bugs. Fungus gnats and other pests can get into the tiniest tear or crack and lay eggs so you really do want a well-sealed container. Unfortunately paper and cardboard usually cannot be sealed nearly as well without some coating of plastic similar to how paper coffee cups can't be recycled without extra processing. I'd also warn people that cockroaches love damp cardboard. Entomologists actually breed cockroaches on damp cardboard in labs when using them in research. So if people do want to buy cardboard packages of potting soil, I'd recommend transferring the soil from the box to a plastic tote or another type of well-sealed reusable container rather than leaving the cardboard box around. Thanks for your thoughtful discussion of packaging and sustainability.

[22:34] Well, thank you, Jeff. That's a really valuable contribution. And indeed, I do put my potting mixes, which actually on the whole do come in plastic bags, into a plastic box. I've actually got something that used to be a linen basket, a plastic linen basket, which is in my shed, which has got a lot of potting mixes in it. And then the rest of my My various mixes of perlite and things are also in plastic boxes and thus they're sealed tight and fungus gnats can't get in there, which is very useful.

[23:12] It's a good point about the cockroaches. I hadn't thought of that or about the fungus net angle, but that's all a really good reason why these things aren't sold in paper and cardboard and something worth bearing in mind, as is often the case. I would say probably always the case. Things are complicated. Sustainability is not just a binary black and white issue. It's quite complicated. So we've always got to be looking for these nuances when we're talking about the best way forward.

[23:41] But hopefully that will help you to make better choices in future. On with question of the week now and it comes from Elizabeth and I apologise Elizabeth that your email got a bit neglected, well I say a bit neglected, a lot neglected. It was in the very bottom of my inbox and it's taken me too long to reply.

[24:01] Elizabeth I did try to email you but the email bounced back so I guess maybe maybe it's been so long you've changed email addresses. Sorry, I'm so sorry. I do usually try to respond to emails really quickly. So if I haven't responded to your question, please do give me a nudge. And this question actually arose as a result of a previous Q&A that I did. That was in episode 258. And I'd answered the question about mealybugs and when to draw a line under them and say this plant needs to be composted because it has too many mealybugs and I talked in that answer about taking cuttings and making sure that the cuttings were clean and Elizabeth's question was what exactly does that mean Elizabeth writes I recently took cuttings from a prayer plant that was overrun by mealybugs it never occurred to me that the critters could could survive being stuck in a jar of water while the cuttings took root and could possibly take over the resulting rooted plant? How does one clean cuttings or make sure they are clear of mealybugs? So that's a really good question because obviously taking cuttings of a plant is a really good backup method, but not if you're just transferring the pest onto a new plant. Can mealybugs survive underwater? Two aspects to the answer to this question. Aspect one, if you stick a cutting in a glass of water.

[25:31] The mealybugs won't instantly die and they will have time to move up the stem.

[25:38] Of the plant and find their way above the water level and then hide there so they won't necessarily be drowned. Even if the whole cutting was underwater it would probably take at least 48 hours of total coverage by water for the mealybugs to die that is because they are covered in waxy secretions the eggs the babies and the adults have a waxy secretion or structure around them and this helps them to resist pesticides and also helps them to avoid getting wetted because this waxy secretion is what we call hydrophobic which means it repels water so the water has to have long enough to be able to get through that layer and to the mealybug itself and kill it so you can imagine they're pretty tough the mealybug will either manage to crawl out of the water or it won't be in the water long enough that it will die so yes it's entirely possible that you could take a cutting put it in water and you will not be free of mealybugs by the time that cutting has got to the stage of being ready to pot up how then would you go about cleaning a cutting to get it ready for propagation complication, it's a tough one.

[27:05] I have had cuttings of the smaller form of the forest cactus. Rhipsalis paradoxa, the chain cactus. Somebody gave me some cuttings, which to be fair, they knew their plant had mealybugs and I took them anyway because I thought, oh yes, I can get rid of the mealybugs. And I had those cuttings for several months. I kept spraying them with soap soap spray, cleaning them and then I would think they were okay and come back a few weeks later and the mealybugs were back. So it's quite hard to do.

[27:39] As ever with pests the war of attrition is what you're facing and it's something you've got to, keep going with multiple whatever you do it's going to be done multiple times and keep the cutting away from your other plants so mine were in a clear plastic bag so that the mealybugs couldn't escape and infest anything else i think you need to go heavy duty on this spraying on, neat rubbing alcohol and leaving it for as long as you dare and getting a soft toothbrush and And actually using that to brush the cutting is easier if it's obviously something like Ripsalis, which is quite tough. But use that toothbrush or a paintbrush to really get into all the nooks and crannies because that's where the mealybugs will be hiding. You could use horticultural soap spray. Again, the main thing is, is that you do it carefully and you keep going with it repeatedly. You know you're risking killing the cuttings by putting neat alcohol on them but better that to have a dead cutting and no mealybugs than an alive cutting that has spread mealybugs to your whole collection remember also that mealybugs some of their life stages the the instars of the mealybugs are too small to see with your naked eye so you'll see the big adults which are quite obvious and the the little nests that they make, these nests have a technical name, they're called ovisax.

[29:05] And it's basically a load of eggs, and they're all kind of bound together with this white waxy secretions again, so you can imagine, again, that's very hydrophobic, so you can see those with the naked eye, but you might not be able to see the younger mealybugs.

[29:19] So just go over every possible surface, don't just apply your treatment just to the spots where you can see mealybugs, go over the whole cutting with your treatment repeat repeat repeat you can do this while the cutting is rooting you know you can just wash off after you've done the treatment whether it's alcohol or soap spray then wash it off and just do it again every few days and don't assume you've got rid of the mealybugs just because you can't see any as I always say a hand lens that can be be very useful to examine your cutting and hopefully you know if you keep that up for a long time your cutting by the time it's ready to be potted up will be mealybug free so that's my suggestion on the mealybug front it's a horrible thing to deal with and it's kind of soul destroying not gonna lie that you've had a cutting and you've got to keep treating it but I think it's the way to go and in the case of Elizabeth her prayer plant cutting you're going to have to be a little bit more careful than you would be with a succulent cutting obviously because the Maranta will be a bit more delicate but again I think it's worth going into all of those nooks and crannies on the plant and with a prayer plant I'd be particularly concerned.

[30:36] With the petiole sheath so the place where new leaves emerge on the leaf stalk that is a very cozy place for a mealybug to hide so I'd be paying particular attention to that part of the plant, incidentally while we're talking about marantas if I could just go off on a giant tangent for a moment I was for some reason or other looking at the RHS website and their page for maranta Maranta lucanura, the classic, what I would call the herringbone prayer plant. And I noted that the common name they give this plant is Ten Commandments. Now, some of these plant names, the common plant names that are on the RHS website, which is rhs.org.uk if you want to check it out.

[31:20] It's a brilliant site, loads of great resources, but I've never heard of this Maranta, Maranta lucanura being called Ten Commandments. I've heard different explanations as to why this This is one that it's because the leaves fold up at night as if in prayer or because it's got 10 dark green spots on the leaves. I mean, I'm looking at the leaves in the picture and there's definitely more than 10 dark green spots. But there we go. If anyone can enlighten me, I'd love to know. Q&A: Mealybug Control and Medicinal Plants for Kids

[31:52] So back to the Q&A question. And for more on mealybugs, do check out episode 143 of the podcast where I go into more depth about mealybugs, what they are and how to control them. Thank you for your question, Elizabeth. And I hope that wasn't too late to help you. And maybe it's helped somebody else, too. If you've got a question for On The Ledge, do drop me a line on theledgepodcast@gmail.com. now it's time to go back to my chat with Michael Holland.

[32:24] Let's go on to talking about some of the specific plants that you that you look at in the book and plants that maybe you find children in your experiences working at the Chelsea Physic Garden. What kind of plants are the ones that people that children tend to rush over to get excited about and come and ask you about?

Michael Holland

I mean, from from working in botanical gardens, both at Kew, as I mentioned, going around the Palm House, which is an amazing spectacle in its own right. Right, and also the more modest glasshouses at Chelsea Physic Garden and the wider garden. Because it's the physic garden, which links to physicians and medicine, it's got this heritage of medicinal plants for 350 years now.

[33:08] The very essence of what is a medicinal plant is that if it's an effective medicinal plant for a horrible disease, it's pretty much 100% likely to be deadly poisonous. Poisonous um i mean obviously when you're going down to the marjoram and sage and culinary herb level then they are of course edible but still medicines but so poisons you know the fact that a plant can kill you 90 of plants on the planet earth are poisonous pretty much so that's the whole fact that plants contain poisons that's that's a real factor of awe i suppose to to kids i've noticed cacti and other succulents things that are spiky um and then carnivorous plants i mean so there's a theme there things that can kill you things that can kill flies and things can hurt you but also massive leaves big you know giant just seeing a giant plant with a banana banana plant with its gigantic leaves and the giant bamboo you do have it um they do have at the palm house at Kew that can grow in, in nature in its happiest, happiest environment can grow a meter in a day. So the idea of something that you could pretty much watch grow, um.

[34:25] If you had enough patience, that's, to me, that's awesome. And I think it is to them as well. I guess it depends on who your storyteller is. And that's back to what you were saying before about you could have a boring guide or you could have an excited, enthusiastic, passionate guide taking you around a glass house. But, yeah, no, those are the ones that really stood out. But also, as much as all of this was a really big turning point for me about 20 years ago, as well as all of those amazing things that school kids visiting Chelsea Physic Garden were just, being wowed about um as well as you know seeing coffee growing on seeing oh that's that's vanilla oh i didn't realize that came home plant all that sort of stuff but then i remember one day there was a little boy and we're in a vegetable bed at Chelsea Physic Garden he just saw the onion bed the vegetable bed and just saw the top of an onion growing saw the base of the onion but the the leaves coming out of the ground and he immediately recognized that as something he'd seen at home. And he literally was jumping up and down, pointing at it, shouting onion, onion, onion. And to me, that was like, Oh yeah, of course it was an onion. But I did, I had that in my upbringing. My parents grew vegetables. Um, they were like Tom and Barbara from The Good Life.

[35:37] But he didn't, and it got me thinking about that link or that lost link, that lost connection. And I devised a project called Shelf Life, whereby I sort of semi-tortured, but I grew plants in corresponding packaging. So I'd have an orange juice carton with an orange tree in it or a pickled onion jar with an onion plant growing out of it, et cetera. And it made a really good, big impact to me and to the learning program there at the Physic Garden and to many others who've kind of tried it themselves around the world so i think seeing things that are relevant that's the long answer to your question i think is um something that's relevant to their to their lives you know an onion that they might see in the in the fridge at home or in on their dinner plate at home for sure um that idea that we use plants in our daily lives, for sure absolutely absolutely and it's making those connections that really can make a difference i think to children and lots of children as you say don't know where an onion comes from.

[36:41] Or how apples get to the the supermarket i mean it's i mean i sometimes realize also where there are gaps in my own knowledge and that the other day i was thinking about um i can't think which which spice it was, but I was literally thinking about a spice and thinking, I don't actually know what that is in terms of, is it a seed? Is it a flower? I don't know. And I was just thinking to myself, gosh, actually, you know, I consider myself to be fairly well-educated about these things, but there are plants involved in my life that I'm not really up to speed with where they're coming from. So it's an interesting one.

[37:19] And I can imagine there's a lot of joy.

Michael Holland

A clove, maybe?

Jane Perrone No it wasn't clove - i did know that one i think it might have been and it wasn't fenugreek i'm trying to remember it must have been must have been looking at some some sort of southeast asian cuisine um um i mean i'm always fascinated the fact that mace is made from the i don't even know what the technical term for it is the sort of the sheath that goes around the um is it almond I'm trying to remember now nutmeg nutmeg yeah that's right calyx or the seed coat or something yeah it's quite interesting yeah and you think gosh those two things are linked but they're not they're they're so closely linked but they're not the same the same spice um but I think that kind of thing's fascinating I mean maybe I'm probably boring onto my children about this stuff the seeds are fascinating.

Michael Holland

Seeds are fascinating - you've got everything from the biggest seed in the world the coca de mer that looks like a big gorilla's bottom or and other things and it's 22 kilos and then you've got tropical orchid seeds, can be a thousandth of a gram and just float around in the jungles and waiting on, well, hoping for the best that they'll find the right fungus to team up with that will give them the nutrients to grow on the bark of a tree. It's amazing.

[38:34] Seeds are a really great place to start. And I guess that ties back into what you were saying about, you know, The Pip Book and, you know, taking a seed and figuring out how to grow it, what it needs to actually germinate is a fascinating business. And I know there's, you know, botanists who that's their life's work, which strikes me as a fascinating job. I spent the day on last Friday at the, at Wakehurst Place, the sister garden of Kew Gardens. And my friend's the current director there, Ed Ikin, and he took me into the kind of the vaults of the Millennium Seed Bank. I'd never been in there before. And it was just, I just, I was like a little kid in the sweet shop, you know, looking at packets of seeds that have been brought back from St. Helena and Pakistan and Lebanon and Svalbard. And it was like, wow. And it was brilliant. It was really good. I didn't go into the deep freeze, but it was fascinating. I found it really good.

[39:29] Jane Perrone

Going back to what we were talking about with plants that children are drawn to, I just wanted to ask you about Venus flytraps. I'm sure they're in the book. I haven't, I'm sure that they're in here somewhere. I haven't actually seen that. Yeah, there's a, there's a car, I think there's a carnivorous plant bog or a kind of a bottle terrarium, a carnivorous terrarium in there of some sort. Yeah, they're in the, they're in there. They're in both books, actually. They're a great passion of mine. They've come into the public eye once again through the John Lewis Christmas ad featuring a sort of fantastical Venus flytrap, let us say. I mean, I've kind of shared my thoughts about this on social media. But what do you think of this? Do you think it's a I mean, I'm not going to break it down in a binary. Is it a good thing or a bad thing? Because obviously it's more complicated than that. But do you feel it's a positive addition or something that's going to draw children into thinking about carnivorous plants, perhaps?

Michael Holland

I did receive a message from a friend a couple of days ago saying, have you seen the John Lewis ad? I saw it and I thought of you, Michael. And I have now gone and looked at it. I really like it. It's, yeah, it's kind of fantastical. I think that if children then go out and buy a Venus flytrap, they might be a little disappointed. They're not as animated as that. hat you. Know um it's amazing by the end of that advert that that family still has has that small dog. I mean that's one thing i was it looks like it's got a good appetite on it and big enough to eat a small dog um i mean there are kind of as plants of the world that have been found with shrews with small even baby monkeys apparently drowned in them um but that's not the active types the passive ones that just you know pools of water liquid um no i think it's great any anything that brings plants to life and that certainly does it can can only be a good thing really and it's quite an interesting message as well kind of like go for something that's a little bit out of the ordinary from your your standard boring Christmas tree.

Jane Perrone I agree - i mean i think - sorry go ahead

Michael Holland well the actual fact that we bring a tree into to our houses um for a month or maybe more uh is a weird thing you know i often say what if aliens came to planet earth around this kind of time of year and looked in our windows like hang on a minute they're cutting them out cutting them down out there and then putting them in their houses and decorating them what is this species you know but actually it's a nice thing we do whether it's easter birch tree in in Scandinavia dressed up with easter eggs or various plants used in hindu ceremonies and other cultural ceremonies or a christmas tree you know i quite like that that we've got this that's kind of an almost not quite lost connection but a connection with with the plant world that we use and it symbolizes something it symbolizes that spring will come again.

[42:23] Jane PErrone

I think there's been a lot of issues with talking to plant sellers in this country actually getting hold of fly traps now that we've left the EU and the CITES regulations are affecting imports of plants like Venus fly traps and also cacti and succulents. So I'm not sure how good the supply is. I do quite like the John Lewis plushie Venus fly trap though, which is probably the one that's like a more reliable purchase if you actually, actually uh you know that will not die on you as the venus flytrap may well do.

Michael Holland

I actually just remembered that in that advert he's he grows it from an acorn which is really weird it looks like he plants an acorn and he gets a venus but that's that's also a bit bit misleading to be honest

Jane Perrone Yes, I looked at that i was looking sort of looking at starts going oh my gosh look at that they've basically taken an acorn without its cap on it but i guess you know again Again, this is illustrating the fact that artistic license is being taken. And of course, you know, as I always like to reflect, you know, this is part of a long history of this plant being mythologized that goes way back to when it was very first, you know, brought to the UK from North and South Carolina in 1768 or whatever it was, so it's it's very part of a very long tradition, which I found fascinating. But um i think probably if in terms of carnivorous plants as a starter plant i think i'd be directing somebody towards something like Drosera capensis, the sundew maybe would you agree as a starter something a little bit easier than the venus flytrap?

Michael Holland I'd say yes sun dew or some of the sarracenias, i mean i've got one in the kitchen which is a nepenthes that's a bit not too tricky at all. It's a Nepenthes alata, some people call it monkey cups, and that just hangs down in a hanging basket. And I think they're all quite easy to grow, as long as you just follow a few simple instructions. They love rainwater, pretty much all of them need, quite a lot of sunlight and um yeah don't be alarmed like you said the venus flytraps do die back in the winter so do some of the sarracenias, the pitcher plants, so don't be alarmed if they look a bit dead nowish uh for a few months because that's what they do it's just the dormancy and i i buy mine from Hampshire Carnivorous Plants s and they are brilliant you know because they grow them all they're all like sustainably done and always award-winning in their child in in their RHS flower show displays as well. But he was telling, Matthew was telling me that quite a lot of these sarracenias, they actually are from North America, as you said and some of them are from Canada, and they go down to minus 10 centigrade in the winter, and they almost need that to give them the vigour for the following year. So there can be outdoor plants in the UK and other parts of Europe. So that's a good, they're pretty tough, and they're pretty amazing, those pictures. I think that i think they're all i think they're all quite straightforward to grow.

Jane Perrone Now i wanted to finish up by just asking you what you want to do next what are your next plans are you obviously you're probably like like most authors just kind of basking and getting the publicity done for this book but do you have more plans for taking this further with um books or any more projects that you've got in mind for um this particular aspect which is ever more important as we sort of face a future of climate change?

Michael Holland I do want to write more books. I've already sent Flying Eye Books a few ideas that I've got, not necessarily all about plants, but sort of roughly about the natural world. And we'll see what happens. And... I have actually got, with a different publisher, a beginner's gardening book aimed at five-year-olds coming out in the spring.

Jane Perrone

Oh, nice.

It hasn't got a name yet, but that's been written.

Michael HOlland And you mentioned raccoons. I've got a book that came out in June with a German publisher called Smart Animals, and that features raccoons. They're clever little things, very clever, cleverer than us, I think, most of the time.

Jane PErrone Oh, brilliant. Brilliant. Well, I'm looking forward to seeing more books from you, Michael. I was absolutely enchanted by this one. But thank you so much for joining me today.

Michael Holland

Thanks so much for having me.

[46:45] Music.

[46:50] Do check out the show notes at JanePerrone.com, where, as ever, you'll find a full transcript of this episode, along with access to all the other episodes of this show, of which there are many, 280 odd. So plenty of material there to go back and listen to. And there's a handy thematic guide on my website, too. So if you're looking for episodes about a specific topic, do check that out. It's linked off the podcast page. So just go to janeperrone.com, click on the podcast page, and you'll see there in bold the thematically arranged list of episodes. I do hope you have a fantastic couple of weeks and I will speak to you soon. Remember, take care of yourself, then take care of your plants because you deserve it. Bye.

[47:44] Music.

[47:46] Bye. The music you heard in this episode was Roll Jordan Roll by The Joy Drops, The Road We Used to Travel When We Were Young by Komiku and Overthrown by Josh Woodward. Visit the show notes for details.

[48:13] Music.

I talk to Michael Holland about his new houseplant book for children, A Jungle In Your Living Room, and I answer a question about mealy bugs on cuttings.

Want advice on getting your houseplants through winter? Check out On The Ledge episodes pisode 118 of the show, and also 113 and 68. You’ll find a thematic guide to all the podcast’s back catalogue here.

This week’s guest

Michael Holland is a London based freelance nature educator and writer. He’s on Instagram as @pond_dipper. Michael’s book A Jungle In Your Living Room is out now, published by Flying Eye books. His first book was I Ate Sunshine For Breakfast. Both books were illustrated by Phillip Giordano.

Ledge End and Superfan tier subscribers to my Patreon can listen to An Extra Leaf 122 now, featuring an extra chunk of chat with Michael where we talk about three planty women from history who we should all be celebrating.

Chapters

0:02:24 Introduction: Michael Holland, nature educator and author
0:04:52 Teaching the Natural World to Different Audiences
0:08:54 The Power of Scientific Names and Children's Perception of Them
0:12:50 Propagating plants from cuttings: A rewarding gardening experiment
0:14:50 The joy of trying avocado seeds and other fun plant experiments
0:16:17 Stunning Illustrations by Philip Giordano
0:19:20 How to support On The Ledge as a patron
0:22:34 Q&A: Dealing with Mealybugs on cuttings
0:32:36 A tangent about the herringbone prayer plant and its other name, ten commandments
0:34:04 Second part of my interview with Michael Holland
0:47:46 Wrapping up and music credits

Check these notes as you listen…

Want to hear more about demystifying botanical Latin? Check out On The Ledge episode 81.
Michael has worked at the Chelsea Physic Garden in London - I highly recommend a visit if you have never been. You can find out more about Michael’s Shelf Life project at the garden here.
The book Michael recommends for learning about growing plants from kitchen waste is The Pip Book by Keith Mossman.
If you’ve never heard of Tom and Barbara from The Good Life as mentioned by Michael in the second half of his interview, this was a British television sitcom from the 1970s in which a couple called Tom and Barbara Good decide to turn their suburban garden into a self-sufficient homestead - with hilarious consequences of course. Here’s a video clip.
We talk a bit about where some spices come from: here’s what I couldn’t remember in the episode - the spice known as mace is made from the aril (seed covering) of the nutmeg (Myristica fragrans). Cloves are the unopened flower buds of Syzygium aromaticum.

Question of the week

Elisabeth got in touch to ask about whether a prayer plant cutting taken from a plant infested with mealybugs was likely to pass on the infestation when rooted in water. The simple answer is most probably, yes. Mealy bugs can survive under water for at least a couple of days, and in that time they will probably be able to crawl out from under the water to a spot higher up the cutting. Mealybugs are covered in waxy secretions, both as adults but also in their egg and juvenile states - this stuff is hydrophobic which makes it hard for both pesticides and water to penetrate.

So cuttings should be thoroughly cleaned before rooting if there is a risk they can be infected with mealy bugs. I’d recommend spraying cuttings with an alcohol solution (as concentrated as you dare) or a horticultural soap spray, using a soft toothbrush to make sure you reach every nook and cranny where mealy bugs like to dwell. Don’t expect to do this once and once only: it’s best to repeat the treatment several times while the cutting is rooting, to ensure that the pests really have gone away.

For more on mealy bugs, check out On The Ledge episode 143.

Want to ask me a question? Email ontheledgepodcast@gmail.com. The more information you can include, the better - pictures of your plant, details of your location and how long you have had the plant are always useful to help solve your issue!

This week’s sponsor

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Visit trueleafmarket.com and enter promo code OTL10 to receive $10 off your purchase of $50 or more.

Houseplant Gardener in a Box is now out worldwide!

Grow happy, healthy houseplants with the help of these simple, illustrated cards. The 60 informative cards, illustrated by artist Cody Bond, and 32-page book packaged in a giftable box.

I answer hundreds of questions, including: What sort of plants love a bathroom? How can you bring an orchid back into flower? What needs regular watering, and what doesn’t mind if you forget? What can you put on a sunny windowsill, and what will send foliage tumbling attractively from a shelf? Drawing on years of experience and research, her cards provide sensible, practical, and inspiring advice. The accompanying book will guide you through the process of selecting plants, and Cody Bond’s beautiful illustrations will inspire you along the way. Order your copy now from all good bookstores (and lots of plant shops too!)

HOW TO SUPPORT ON THE LEDGE

Contributions from On The Ledge listeners help to pay for all the things that have made the show possible over the last few years: equipment, travel expenses, editing, admin support and transcription.

Want to make a one-off donation? You can do that through my ko-fi.com page, or via Paypal.

Want to make a regular donation? Join the On The Ledge community on Patreon! Whether you can only spare a dollar or a pound, or want to make a bigger commitment, there’s something for you: see all the tiers and sign up for Patreon here.

NEW! You can now join my Patreon as a free member or take out a seven-day free trial of my Ledge End tier. Visit my Patreon page for details.

The Crazy Plant Person tier just gives you a warm fuzzy feeling of supporting the show you love.
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